2010-11-28 7:22 pm
#9
- 2010-11-28 7:22 pm
- #9
what horn are you using?
using both TL1102 and TL1601a in the same design seems overkill. The difference between the two drivers is not worth a crossover point. You would be better served with a real subwoofer instead of the 1601, or maybe get rid of the 1102 and let the 1601 meet the 4001 if you have a big enough horn.
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2010-11-28 8:33 pm
#10
- 2010-11-28 8:33 pm
- #10
I have a pair of Yamamoto F-350II horns. The cutoff frequency is 350Hz.
You would be better served with a real subwoofer instead of the 1601
You could be right about this.
But from my amateur understanding, the TL-1601a is a pretty fast woofer. Real subwoofers are usually slower. While they can go lower, they cannot keep up with the higher frequency drivers. I prefer a coherent system over deep bass. Do you have a particular subwoofer driver in mind?
Anyone with experience about this please chime in.
maybe get rid of the 1102 and let the 1601 meet the 4001 if you have a big enough horn
I am not so sure about this idea. Having the TL-1102 as the mid-bass, I believe, has great advantages. Not only I do not take the TD-4001 and the TL-1601 to the edge (where they do not perform very well), but I also have the volume adjustment ability for the lower half of the mid-range. Therefore, I can fine tune the sound. For example, if I add more volume on the mid-bass driver, I will get a thicker sound; It will feels like the singer is heavier and the sound of the instruments have more weight. The key is this can be achieved without affecting the bass. I did not realize this benefit until my system was set up.
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2010-11-28 11:38 pm
#11
- 2010-11-28 11:38 pm
- #11
Slow or fast has no real meaning when speaking about drivers, specially subwoofers. You only have to consider the bandwidth and efficiency.
If you want to stick with the TL1102 I think you should seriously consider these (JBL SUB1500), crossed over around 60Hz to your 1102. W15GTI would also be an option, as well as acoustic elegance AV15.
Any of these will do much better than the TL1601 in the 20-100Hz range (and not using the TL1102 down to at least 80Hz would be a waste...).
Concerning the ET703 / TD4001 integration, it is always better to try to cross the supertweeter as high as possible to avoid comb filtering in the most sensitive regions. 10khz is a good point to consider, but it depends on the horn you are using.
Horns with fins (like the one in the Exclusive Model 3401) are more subject to beaming and lobs at high frequencies, and may demand a lower crossover point. Directivity (loss of it) is also a limiting factor as to how high you should use a horn.
Do you have pictures of your horn?
The frequency response of the TD4001 (on which horn, by the way?) is not that important: as long as the falling in level is slow and regular it is not a problem at all, as long as it it taken into account in the crossover). The beryllium diaphragm will remain pistonic at 10khz, no worries.
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2010-11-29 1:03 am
#12
- 2010-11-29 1:03 am
- #12
Slow or fast has no real meaning when speaking about drivers, specially subwoofers.
Perhaps we are referring to different things.
I am referring to the speed of cone movement of woofers and subwoofers. How fast the cone can move in/out and retracts to its normal position. But let me know if your statement still holds true.
Does anyone else have knowledge about this?
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2010-11-29 1:06 am
#13
- 2010-11-29 1:06 am
- #13
How big the cabinet for the TL-1102 needs to be in order for it to play down to 60Hz-80Hz? Does the cabinet need to be ported?
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2010-11-29 1:09 am
#14
- 2010-11-29 1:09 am
- #14
What kind of amplifier do you recommend for the JBL SUB1500?
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2010-11-29 1:31 am
#15
- 2010-11-29 1:31 am
- #15
manp111 said:
Perhaps we are referring to different things.
I am referring to the speed of cone movement of woofers and subwoofers. How fast the cone can move in/out and retracts to its normal position. But let me know if your statement still holds true.
Does anyone else have knowledge about this?
nice horns!
the "attack speed" of a driver has to do with its lack of power compression. The more efficient it is and the more voice coil surface it has, the less the power compression for the same SPL. (long term power compression also has to do with the capacity of the motor to reject heat out of the voice coil, but it is more useful for Pro use than hifi use: we are more interested in immediate power compression effects).
With its heavy cone the Sub1500 is much less efficient than a TL1601 in the midband, but that is not the case in the LF. It also has much more voicecoil area than the TAD.
the "decay speed" of a driver (not considering the amplifier here) has to do with the dampening of the cone. The heavy cone a the sub1500 or W15GTI will dampen the resonances much faster than the relatively light cone of the TAD (and that would be true at any frequency).
And then these subwoofers are also capable of moving a lot more air with less distortion...
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2010-11-29 1:34 am
#16
- 2010-11-29 1:34 am
- #16
manp111 said:
How big the cabinet for the TL-1102 needs to be in order for it to play down to 60Hz-80Hz? Does the cabinet need to be ported?
yes
Widget on the audioheritage forum has such a system:
sub1500, TL1102, TD4003/TH4003, ET703
he says it is a killer system, and I tend to believe what he says 
manp111 said:
What kind of amplifier do you recommend for the JBL SUB1500?
1000W per channel would not be overkill
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2010-11-29 1:49 am
#17
- 2010-11-29 1:49 am
- #17
1000W per channel would not be overkill
I assume you are referring to class D solid state.
Haha, I am using an 8 watt 300B SET amp for the TL-1601 temporary. I am switching to an 845 SET amp soon.
Do you have experience with using high power SET like 845 for woofers?
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2010-11-29 1:54 am
#18
- 2010-11-29 1:54 am
- #18
woofers and LF need WATTS! lots of them! Brutal Pro amps are ideal for this task.
this is one of the benefits of going active: you can choose whatever amp you need/like for each driver
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2010-11-29 2:03 am
#19
- 2010-11-29 2:03 am
- #19
I understand your commendation of using the JBL sub and TL-1102 crossed at 60Hz. It is an excellent recommendation. However, it does not suit my application.
First, I have a small room. I need to minimize the speaker cabinet size. The cabinet that I build is 22W x 32H X 25D inch. This cabinet holds both 1601 and 1102 drivers (the 1102 is in its own 40 liter unported box)
I think to build two ported box combined for the JBL and 1102 to play at the desires frequencies requires a much larger box.
Second, I don't really care much for deep bass. I had a REL Studio III (over killed for my room size) before and I didn't like it.
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2010-11-29 2:09 am
#20
- 2010-11-29 2:09 am
- #20
woofers and LF need WATTS! lots of them! Brutal Pro amps are ideal for this task.
Have you try 845 SET amps on sufficient woofers before. I will try to demo some high power SS amp.
Something that some people are not aware of is wattage is not the only thing. 18-25 watt SET will produce better bass than 40 watt 34 EL Push Pull. Further more, the level of realism of SET is far beyond the level that SS and push pull can achieve, maybe even in terms of LF production.
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